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Top 10 Players...
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Four in a Row
Top 10 Players...
Posted in 
Four in a Row
Top 10 Players...
Hi, just thought ide get some people to share their thoughts on their opinions of the top 10 players, of today on four in a row.

1. ♥.þєŧiŧ ¢ǿєùя.♥
2. ♥ Cяιѕтιαήσ ♥
3. LAMIA
4. ✲ℐςє ℬυɳɳy™✲
5. ✴ ℬ∫αςƙ ℭαɬ ✴™
6. ⇏ ✲ʞίϻʙέяℓέγ❣ ⇍™
7. golbez
8. cosmix
9. ◄↕☼‡☼↕►
10. Retired >>>> Jer0me <<<< king of C4


thnx all :p,

gl ppl :p
hello, thanks for me humm :p (although many people think I program) lool

(for me jerome is not good, i broke him many time, and he play always same game.)

i have a question who is callum ? it's you ? 

because many people say callum = mason = program = Point Bank

for me good player is : ( I have no particular order )

claudine13 (but she don't play now
lamia
angelica
blackcat
golbez
Klosse10

there are also
jolie fée
SOCCER22
Chance123
r k o
Ob8
...

later he has people that I never played or little 
Excuse me for the players that I forgot

(and for people who wonder who is phone, yes it's me)

good game at all and good luck 

bye !


1. ♥.þєŧiŧ ¢ǿєùя.♥
2. ♥ Cяιѕтιαήσ ♥
3. LAMIA
4. ✲ℐςє ℬυɳɳy™✲
5. ✴ ℬ∫αςƙ ℭαɬ ✴™
6. ⇏ ✲ʞίϻʙέяℓέγ❣ ⇍™
7. golbez
8. cosmix
9. ◄↕☼‡☼↕►
10. Retired >>>> Jer0me <<<< king of C4

LMFAO Top Players.? xD
Errors:-

1. ♥.þєŧiŧ ¢ǿєùя.♥ - i Rank as the lowest he is a point banker when he first started on four in a row. now hes a top player? haha
2. ♥ Cяιѕтιαήσ ♥ - aka тнє ηєω ¢нαмρ  point banker also a "top player" ? lol

All the (real top players left c4)

LAMIA is good.
golbez is good.
Jer0me is good. Those are my top players on that List!

^They are legends. ^


btw ✴ ℬ∫αςƙ ℭαɬ ✴™ = ⇏ ✲ʞίϻʙέяℓέγ❣ ⇍™ same people lol O.o


Bonsoir, c'est une plaisanterie ? jerome est un bon joueur ? à part jouer tout le temps pareil et très restreint ! il n'a jamais voulu jouer en 437, 417... ( des styles faciles ) et même en jouant toujours pareil et restreint , je l'ai breaké plus d'une fois ( il cherche toujours des excuses ) 

Et tu dis un point banqueur ne peut pas être un bon joueur, je suis désolé de t'informer que jerome = fyra i rad, et qu'il a point banque pour avoir la couronne. jerome donné des points à cristiano et cristiano donné des points à fyra i rad ( jerome ). Et il a été reset et banni temporaire.

Rappelez-moi ce que vous disez à propos des point banqueurs ? :d

Et tu dis n'importe quoi, tu dis avant j'étais un point banquier, donc maintenant je ne peux pas être un bon joueur, d'une ce n'était pas moi, ( renseignez-vous avant d'accusé ! ) et deux cela n'a rien à voir ! ( une exemple facile pour que vous comprenez. tu as été un enfants donc tu ne peux pas être un adulte maintenant ! La morale, c'est qu'un enfant évolue et devient un adulte ! )

Et je jouais au Puissance 4 (8x8) et il n'y a pas de programmes...

golbez lamia = good players but kimberley too. she play many style ! ( not as jerome ;) )

Je serais ravi de te jouer un jour, (si ce n'est pas déjà fait sous un autre de tes pseudos)

Merci pour la bonne plaisanterie ! Bonen chance à tous !

TRADUCTION :

Good evening, this is a joke? Jerome is a good player? except play all the time like that and very small! he never wanted to play in 437, 417 ... ( easy styles )
and even playing always the same and small, I break more than once ( he is always looking for excuses )

And you say point banker can not be a good player, I'm sorry to inform you that fyra i rad = Jerome, and he hath bank for the crown. jerome given points to cristiano
and cristiano given points to fyra i rad ( Jerome ). And it has been reset and banned temporarily.

Remind me what you said about banqueurs point? : d

And you say anything, before you say I was a point banker, so now I can not be a good player, one that was not me (information before you accused!) and two this has nothing to do! (an easy example for you to understand. you were a child so you can not be an adult now ! The moral is that a child grows and becomes an adult! )

I also play at connect 4 (8x8) and there is no program.

Golbez and lamia = good players but kimberley too. Many style she play! ( Not As jerome ;) )

I would love to play you one day (if not already under another one of your nicks)

( I hope it is understandable )

Thank you for the good joke ! Good luck at all !
In my opinion the top 10 c4 players are:

1.Sphinx
2.Fantasygirl
3.✲ℐςє ℬυɳɳy™✲
4.golbez
5.♥.þєŧiŧ ¢ǿєùя.♥
6.✴ ℬ∫αςƙ ℭαɬ ✴™
7.Klosse10
8.LAMIA
9.r k o
10.jolie fée

Those are the true top 10 flyordie c4 players

Ŧħȩ_Ħēàvēńly ;)


Lol ..
Nearly the complete Top List is banking or programing.;)
Well.. old times if someone remember me.
Old crown. :P

Tommy
KNOWbuddycares, come on FOD some day i want to play with you :p
 
 
 

 

:D Can you make the sound llamas make?
The better name to this topic is the Top 10 Friends or Enemies if anyone wants too. This tipoic became a joke! :s

The best c4's players don't play here actually. So we aren't so good like are. At the moment Relfson, Syphix* and Dreddz are best players. When Cymantex comes back he is the real best one. He represents the old school players. They are last breath of c4's old school.

Actually, many c4's players are progs or they are learning with a prog or they play fair and they prog at the same time.
hello you say that many people have programs, but I'll signal that cymantex to all programs. nothing tells us that he feels is not sometimes. even if he does not play
with a program during the games. it has an advantage.

FlyOrDie is the site that has the
best players.
- on kurnik, it has more connect 4,
- on ludi, without comment,
- on gametwist, they are all breakable in the game basic. (gold players who play on FlyOrDie)

And I noticed that there is more girl who can play well before.

If you know of another site connect 4, where he has very good players said to me! thank you in advance!

good luck at all
KNOWbuddycares!!! Only for you I will try ;) :p
LOL @ "Flyordie is the site with the best players."

Yes maybe now it is, since the other sites are dead. Kurnik no longer has c4. Blip has been shut down. But when those sites were around, the players at those sites were a million times better than here. What few good players at flyordie there are/were, are the ones who originated from other sites. There is only a VERY small handful of good players who are TRULY "flyordie players", Lamia being one of them (and the only one I can think of at the moment). Jer0me doesn't count as a flyordie player, he was a kurnik player who sometimes visited flyordie. 99% of the red shields are programs, runners and/or bottom-feeders. And for the record, probably anyone whose name is mostly symbols or weird letters, is a program.

So any list of top players that is comprised mainly of flyordie-only players, is definitely not a list of top players.
Im amazed that you can understand anything of what he wrote.. Think he used google-translate from french, lol. 


[quote]"hello you say that many people have programs, but I'll signal that cymantex to all programs. nothing tells us that he feels is not sometimes. even if he does not play
with a program during the games. it has an advantage."[/quote]

What do you mean here? You mean cymantex has all progs and he play with all progs sometimes? lol

Cymantex is a top play as eliten, bradspelaren*, fstal and much more swedish and not swedish players. Sometimes you called all of them proggers!! He basically plays on anti-break mode. That means the starter starts with a bad start! 
If
 you are calling him of a progger so tell me then a prog that uses anti-breaks too?

[quote]"FlyOrDie is the site that has the
best players.
- on kurnik, it has more connect 4,
- on ludi, without comment,
- on gametwist, they are all breakable in the game basic. (gold players who play on FlyOrDie)

And I noticed that there is more girl who can play well before.

If you know of another site connect 4, where he has very good players said to me! thank you in advance!

good luck at all"[/quote]

Actually, FOD is a good site because there are many proggers and ex-proggers play here. It's very awsome!! For exemple xtazy, ferite and much more. If we take the proggers and ex-proggers, the gametwist is almost in the same level than here.

Certrus Games and if you have lucky you can find eliten and your friend jerome! But certrus games is all the time empty.

One question, what u mean in advanced? :d
Yes well, it's a knack I have...you see I think in gibberish and so I naturally comprehend gibberish very well!

Translation for parasita: by "in advance" he means, he's thanking you for telling him the site before you tell it to him. So it's a preemptive thanks.

And thanks LAMIA! As soon as I hear the llama in my head, I'll know you've succeeded, and I'll come back to flyordie!
hello, thank you in advance ( thanking people before they meet, it's not more complicated than that :p )

More than once I played cymantex, and when he goes out he has a sign.

For me a very good player is a player who learns by himself, playing with another player. And not finding the solution with programs! After everyone's opinion. But I prefer to play with players like pretty fairy, LAMIA, blackcat, aphrodite, rko, OB8, 07HARD07 ...

but I'm not saying cymantex or brad are bad. Every good player can break a program, you just set it on time. 

But all the good loser, are good players (whatever the number of points they have) ;)

good luck at all 
Thx by explanation knowbuddy. I didn't know this expression.

Cymantex plays c4 more than 7 years. So he knows all the possibles solutions. More than you know.

You say that for 2 reasons: 
 * Reason one - for jealousy/or somebody put it in your minds.
 * Reason two - your english.

You haven't understood him well so far. You prossibly used the progs to solve some solutions of this game right? And it's possible you've memorized the solutions  from a prog right? If you use a prog to practice, you must admit it. It's not a tragedy if you admit that.

If you read anything about C4 in a book or on the internet or if anyone teached you this game, that means you haven't learnt by yourself. You used the others minds to build your own minds. It's the same if you use a prog and you copy the prog's styles. They help you to learn play. The only difference between you learn alone or with a prog or you learn with a book or you learn with other person is, you can learn more quickly with a book and with a teacher, because they explain you the rules and the better strategies of the game, than you learn alone or with a prog,in this case you don't have explanations, so your learning will be longer.  

You think he is a proggrer just you broke him while he was playing in the anti-break mode (means the starter starts with a bad start). If he plays normal you'll see that you are wrong! Probally you don't know to regnize when you are really playing with a progger or not. You only recognize by the signs or the users names.

I think that you forgot one thing. You got the sign many times. If i'm not wrong your last sign was 3 or 2 years ago. According with your theory, you are or you were a progger too right? Because you got a sign alog time ago right?

Four questions:
 * How can you find an anti to break a prog, for exemple for mustrum, while the proggers run of you?

 * Do you practice with your friends to break the progs?
If you say yes, so explain how do you do that. Does they use the progs?

 * How long time you take to find an anti to break the mustrum in the fod?!

 * Have you know any anti to break mustrum 2.1.2 or mustrum 2.1.1?

 It's impossible you find all or many breaks for a progs if you don't have your own mustrum to find them :-s.
Bonjour, je n'ai ni appris avec un programme, ni avec un livre ou internet, et encore moins que quelqu'un m'a enseigné. C'est comme tout ! Il suffit de comprendre le "pourquoi du comment" . A force de jouer les forts joueurs, ou de les regardé jouer, j'ai compris le système du paire / impaire. Après j'ai remarqué que les joueurs commençaient en 436... à chaque fois. ( à l'époque où j'ai commencé à jouer ) Et j'ai compris qu'il avait des stratégies. Après contrairement à 80% des gens. Je les ai appris mais en les comprenant. J'ai appris à beaucoup de personne à jouer. Juste par amour de ce jeu. ( mais tu as le droit de penser ce que tu veux, c'est ta liberté de pensé. et je respect cela )

Et je te signal que la duré n'a jamais fait la qualité. ( en clair, c'est pas parce que ça fait 7 ans qu'il y joue, qu'il est plus fort que tout les récents. Si on part de se principe là. Elimination est plus fort que tout le monde, vu qu'il est arrivé en 2001, donc 10ans. Je te laisse y réfléchir mdr ) En tout cas, j'aime ton sens de l'humour. 

Et parasita, je ne me compare pas aux autres joueurs. Et gagné ce n'est pas ce qui fait le charme de ce jeu ! Je préfère jouer contre jolie fée, lamia, klosse, kim, Ob8, rko, 07hard07 et encore d'autres. Pour leurs rapidité et leur jeux. Mais surtout car ils sont très sympas. 

Il y a pleins de joueurs qui joue bêtement, sans comprendre le "pourquoi du comment" . Ce n'est pas du savoir jouer. Mais vaut mieux jouer mal qu'avec un programme !

Et je n'ai aucun programme, tu peux aller voir sur les autres jeux, tel que les dames, je n'ai même pas 1 point... ou reversi, gomoku...

Et merci pour ta plaisanterie ( tu es un jaloux ) Je vais te dire oui, pour que tu sois heureux :) ( mais c'est moi le jaloux, mais c'est toi qui m'attaque tout le temps ) Je te laisse en déduire ce que je veux dire.

( Remarque : vaut mieux mal parler l'anglais, mais faire l'effort de le parler. Que de rien faire et se moquer de ce qui essaie, c'est bien plus facile de se moquer ;) Et sache que la méchanceté, la jalousie, le mensonge ou la moquerie, n'a jamais fait avancé...)

Bonne chance à tous et bon jeu

Traduction : 

Hello, thank you KNOWbuddycares for explaining (to: thank you in advance)

I did not learn of a program or with a book or internet, and yet Unless someone taught me. It like everything! Just understand "Why and how." By dint of play strong players, or the play looked, I realized the system the odd / even. Then I noticed that players began in 436 ... every time. (At the time I started playing) and I realized he strategies. After opposed to 80% of people. I have learned but by understanding. I taught many to play. Just for the love of the game. ( but you have the right to believe what you want is your freedom of thought. and I respect that )

And I'll signal that never lasted is quality. (Clearly is not because it's been seven years since he played, it is stronger than all lately. If one starts from the principle is there. Elimination is stronger than all world, since he arrived in 2001, So 10 years. I'll leave that lol) Anyway, I like your sense of humor. 

And parasite, I do not compare myself to other players. And it is not won what makes the charm of this game! I prefer to play against pretty fairy, Lamia, Kloss, Kim, OB8, RKO, and 07hard07 still others. For their speed and their games. But mainly because they are very nice. 

There are lots of players who play stupidly, without understanding the "why the how. "This is not knowledge play. But better to play badly with a program! 

And I have no program, you can go see the other games, such as Ladies, I have not even 1 point ... or reversi, caro ... 

And thank you for your joke (you're jealous) I'm gonna say yes for you to be happy:) (but it's me the jealous, but it was you who attacked me all the time) I'll let you deduce what I mean. 

(Note: better to speak ill English, but make the effort to talk. That to do anything and make fun this trying is more easy to make fun;) And know that wickedness, jealousy, falsehood or derision, has never advanced ... ) 

good luck and good game at all
hehehe
well, KNOWbuddycares, if you don't, the upset llama will "cluck" and "growl" :D :p 
Ambiguation Fanfarron!!

To end this conversation: 

Everyone does that. If you don't understand the game, you'll never know play the game. Isn't it obviously Petit? Even the begginers do that. Some of them understands that quickly and some of them learns slowly. So you haven't said anything important.


I only gave you an exemples how a person can learn everything! In this case C4 and specially when a player practice at fod or at any webgames. Anyway, explain me how have you practiced so well the 4-1-7 or even 1-1-6 against not good players? This is the ambiguation in your speech! At flyordie it's impossible you learn this game alone. Specially when your challengers aren't good.  

About Brad. Bradspelaren and Qwer were the players who've showed to the fod the style 1-1-6. After they started to play the sytle 1-1-6, everyone've copied them. Even you've copied him. 

Finally you admited the true. 

I've not called you proggers anything else. I just gave a exemples. I think that my words have hurt you.

Bonsoir mon clown :p Bonsoir à tous

Les mensonges ou n'importe quel propos, ou les insultes ne m'ont jamais blessé. Ce sont que des mots, et ces tes opinions, tu as le droit de pensé ce que tu veux. :p

" Cymantex joue à c4 plus de 7 ans. Donc, il connaît toutes les solutions possibles. Plus que vous savez. " c'est toi qui a dit ça. Donc moi je te dis si on pense comme toi elimination est plus fort. Il y joue depuis 10ans! Tout sa pour te dire en clair, que le nombre d'année que tu joues, n'a rien à voir avec le niveau.


"A propos de Brad. Bradspelaren et qwer sont les joueurs qui ont montré dans les DOM le 1-1-6 style. Après ils ont commencé à jouer le 1-1-6 sytle, everyone've copiés. Même si vous lui avez copié." ce n'est pas parce que tu invente un style, que tu es le meilleur. 

As-tu déjà joué le 4365172 ? ou 41717... Des styles tu peux en inventé à l'infini. 

Et pour " Si vous ne comprenez pas le jeu, vous ne saurez jamais jouer. N'est-il pas évidemment Petit? " c'est faux ! Car tu peux ne pas comprendre le jeu et y jouer! Et tu peux aussi ne pas comprendre le jeu et gagné! Tu dis n'importe quoi là (enfin comme d'habitude) Mais il y en a pleins qui ne connaissent pas le système paire/impaire. Je le sais, car on me le demande pratiquement tout les jours ;) 

Comment je sais, si bien pratiqué le 4-1-7 ou 1-1-6 ? tu es plus faible que je le croyais! D'une en fesant des erreurs! connais-tu l'expression " on apprend de nos erreurs" et de deux, je t'ai dit moi je ne suis pas brad (je n'apprends pas parcoeur tout les styles)
Le mots "anticipé" ne doit pas être dans ton vocabulaire lol. Et si tu peux apprendre seul! Quand je joue jolie fée, lamia, kim, Ob8 ou autre. Parfois on joue des styles qu'on invente au fur et à mesure. Et ils y arrivent! Ou ils font une erreur et quand  je la refais ils y arrivent! Le plus dure n'est pas d'apprendre un style seul, mais de commencer a bien joué les style basiques. Avant lamia
quand je l'ai connu. Elle ne savait pas jouer en 4-1-7. Maintenant elle sait! Elle a appris seule en faisant des erreurs, et peut-être avec quelque conseils. Le clown ce n'est pas parce que toi tu es obligé qu'on t'aide ou te servir d'un programme, qu'on est obligé aussi.

C'est comme jouer 10 parties en même temps ou jouer de tête, c'est pas dure...

Pour moi il a pleins de personne meilleur que brad ou cymantex ;) . Pour moi un joueur qui apprend toutes les stratégies parcoeur n'a rien d'un bon joueur. Après comme je l'ai dit " chacun son opinion " et je respect la tienne. (c'est mon opinion)

 " Je pense que mes paroles vous ont blessé. " Tu as déjà pri un clown au sérieux toi ? Je te laisse en déduire ce que je veux dire .

Bon jeux à tous et bonne chance ... 

Translation :

hello my clown :p, hello everyone!

Lies or any remarks or insults will never hurt me.
These are only words, and these your opinions, you have the right to think whatever you want. :p

"Cymantex play c4 over 7 years. So he knows all the possible solutions. More than you know." It was you who said that. So I tell you if we think like Elimination is you stronger. There has been playing for 10 years! All her to tell you in clear, that the number of years that you play has nothing to do with the level.

"About Brad. Bradspelaren and qwer is the players who have shown in the DOM 1-1-6 style. After they began to play the 1-1-6 sytle, everyone've copied. Even if you have copied him. "it's not because you invented a style, you're the better.

Have you ever played the 4365172? 41717 or ... Styles as you can invent an infinite. And "If you do not understand the game, you never know play. Is it not Petit course?" This is false! Cause you can not understand the game and play! And you also can not understand the game and won! You say anything here (well as usual) But there are plenty who do not know the system even / odd. I know because I am asked almost every day;)

How do I know so well practiced 4-1-7 or 1-1-6? you're weaker than I thought! By making one error! Do you know the phrase "we learn from our errors" and two, I told you I'm not brad (I do not learn parcoeur all styles)

The words "anticipated"should not be in your vocabulary lol. And if you can learn alone! When I play jolie fée, lamia, kim, OB8 or another. Sometimes we play styles we invent as you go. And they do it! Or they make a mistake and when I remake they get there! The hardest to learn is not only a style, but played well to start the basic style. Lamia before when I knew him. It does knew not play 4-1-7. Now she knows! She learned only by doing errors, and perhaps with some advice. The clown is not because thou art we have to help you or you use a program, we are forced too.

It's like playing 10 games at the same time or play head is not hard ...

For me it was full of people better than brad or cymantex;). For me a player who learns all the strategies parcoeur nothing a good player. Once as I said "everyone's opinion " and I respect yours. (my opinion)

"I think my words have hurt you." Did you seriously pri a clown you? I'll let you deduce what I mean.

thank you for your humor.

good luck at all!
Hey mason :p thx for me lol.
What's up?
See you later man good luck ;-) byee.
It has been a long time since I checked these forums and I see that there have been some interesting discussions going on.

To clear some things up...

I have actually have the exclamation mark twice when I  wanted to test my theory on how the program-detecting system works here on fod. I don't want to go into this more in detail as I then run the danger of having my post removed again. x]

Also since there seems to have been some arguments about how I learned connect 4, let me tell you! ^^

I first started playing connect 4 on blip.se and after like 100 games after repeatedly playing against strong players I realized how the rowsystem works. 
After figuring that out it was a lot easier to find the best moves and generally I progressed very quickly. 

After a few mounths of playing a little bit from time to time and therefore not really improving all that much I  eventually heared about a site called spil.tv2.dk where players was allowed to play their own start constantly. I saw this as a big opportunity to both improve my breaking skills and my starting skills as then I could continuously play as the breaker and both try which antis that are the most effective and also see how the starter should react to different attempts. 

Of course I was also playing at blip from time to time during this period as to test the new starting ideas I had learned to see if they worked in practice. This training method turned out the be extremely effective and in a short period of time my starting skills became almost flawless. However it still took another half year before I knew all the nuances and became pretty much a perfect starter. So it essentially took a hole year before I was able to play my own start perfectly (note that I did all this without program). 

Really only after I accomplished this I got my hand on different programs, really because I was curious about what kinds of new possibilites which could be hiding behind all the standard boring dry perfect moves.

I have always been the kind of player which would never ever just memorize a move rather I really have to know the idea behind each move I'm making. 
One of the rules I have created for myself actually goes "Don't play moves you don't understand!" which really applies in all board games I play. One of my favorite quotes also goes "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail!" which goes hand in hand with my own rule as if you don't understand what you are doing you are very likely not having a plan.

So when I started looking at these new possibilities there was so many things I just didn't understand and I could sit for hours just analyzing the variations and figuring out the meaning behind each move. This is basically how I eventually turned out to know such an extreme amount of variations and ideas by exploring and really going into depth in each position.

Of course I also love getting into unfamiliar positions which I have to solve on my own which is why I created a list of "irregular 5mb's" and is constantly playing anti-breaks hoping to get some kind of mess. However because it's hard to findopponents willing to play and understand irregular 5mb's and because of the games own limitations I eventually grewed tired of the game and now I'm more or less a full-time chess player (it's actually going very well, GM-title here I come! ^^).

Now I'm starting to feel a bit egoistic when talking and bragging about myself this much so let's move on to a non-cymantex topic.

About the issue of "learning from a program/book is not fair!".

Can I ask a simple question?
Why isn't it?

Why do people have to be stuck with only learning through simply playing which is a very slow and inflexible way of doing things?

I guess some of the basis from this argument comes from "who is the best player? The one who has a better general understanding and can calculate best or the one who knows the most variations?" 
In connect 4 it's probably the player who knows most variations which will end up victorious among those two players which is why learning through a program is such an effective way of mastering connect 4. While in more complex games like chess after the opening is over the player with the superior understanding and calculation will most likely win.

It would however be very interesting if we could test who is really best when it comes to figuring out moves by their own. Actually players which knows a whole lot of variants like eliten, qwer etc. are also very good at solving positions by their own, especially because they are aware of so many different winning themes so they know what they should be looking for. However if a player have simply learned by only memorizing and not trying to understand anything it would probably be very difficult for that player in this kind of event.
Actually, at fod, the people fight by them egos, specially, after the people like you, fstal, eliten, qwer and much more stopped to play regulary here. Actually, people wants to be regognized like you are cymantex. They try to prove they are better by words and not by them knowledge. So, this is the origin of the prog's issue! I think a tournament'd prove that.

Learning with a prog isn't an issue for me. There are some styles that I learned by the progs. If anyone wants to know the game, the progs are a good instruments as well as anything that the player uses to find out the knowledge. Any instrument is allowed for knowledge if these instruments are used well.

You don't need introducing. Everyone knows you are very very good. And some styles that the actual players use today, they watched you use. Petit Coeur understood everything wrong when you talked to him.