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Backgammon - rules and flaws
Replies: 15   Pages: 2   Most recent reply posted by: ako673de (Mar 21, 2010 8:16 PM)
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ako673de

Posts: 1
Registered: Feb, 2010

Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Mar 21, 2010 8:16 PM
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Dear programmers of flyordie,

1) please note that the official international backgammon rules state, that player must use AS MANY DICES as possible. That means you are not completely free which move you make first! E.g.: If you have all stones in your home quarter, two stones on your 6, none on your 5 and your 1 is blocked by the opponent, then, if you have 5+1 to go, you must not move 1 somewhere to avoid moving the 5. Instead you would have to move 1 from the 6 and then take out the 5. Please correct this flaw in the near future.

1a) Another special rule (which applys in even more rare situations) is that "the higher dice has priority". This means, that in situations where you can move both dices, but by making the first move no longer can move the second one, you MUST move the higher dice and discard the lower. E.g.: If you have (only) one stone left, it is on 10, your 7 is blocked by the opponent and you have 2+1 to go, then you MUST move the 2 and discard the 1. I personally didn't have such case on flyordie yet, but maybe when looking into it please check for this one, too.

2) In my opinion it is unacceptable to allow unforced (without being doubled) resignations - simply because that can be abused to avoid "gammon" (2x) and "backgammon" (3x) losses. I know the issues (what about interrupted connections? Should these only count single? But then, what if users intentionally disconnect to avoid N times losses) but I think an unforced resignation should always count at least double. And maybe you could monitor the disconnection behaviour of users in order to avoid abuse of this "feature"!

Very interesting by the way what some people here write about "luck" and prediction of computer dice rolls . When I once thought of me being already *very* competitve I challenged a (real life) player, who was well known for making his day with backgammon. He just gave me a REAL lesson. OK, I thought, he was lucky. Better luck next time. Next time he gave me another lesson. And it took quite a while for me to see that it probably can not be only luck. NOW I can tell all of you: The dice roll on flyordie is in no way unrandom. Next time when you still think so please keep in mind that for a very long time in human history bad luck very often meant death while good luck only meant more or less relaxed life circumstances, and therefore evolution especially focussed the human brain on things that run bad.


Rem1

Posts: 4
Registered: Nov, 2011

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 11, 2012 9:49 PM
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agreed!

Caneta

Posts: 38
Registered: Jan, 2009

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 19, 2012 1:19 PM
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I agree with Mr. It is not permissible for a player to give up before starting to remove at least one stone from the board without the winner wins by Backgammon Backgammon Double or Triple. This completely changes the game strategy allowing one who is losing not be punished for losing a backgammon.
For some time I would like to deal with it and the manifestation of his colleague seems to me that the time has come.
In case you can not make corrections in view of loss of connection possibilities, I suggest that at least from the time when a player first remove the stone from the board give the key is turned off, so the game can proceed to the end without giving up. It is a time interval much smaller than the whole game, so that the possibility of disconnection also ends up diminishing and serves at the same time, the best player who wants to try to win a backgammon.
After all, Backgammon is the name and purpose of the game.
See how this completely changes the strategy of the game. Even if you're winning, knowing that the opponent may withdraw at any time, always adopt a defensive strategy to win the game, since a riskier strategy will not give you any benefit, even if that works.
If can not make any modifications that the operator would like to tell us the reasons so that we understood better and so we could settle that no solution to the problem.
Finally, sorry for my poor English. All I'm doing related to the use of the Google Translator.

DEVELOPER

Posts: 513
Registered: Sep, 2004

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 20, 2012 11:59 AM
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Backgammon has been updated:
- rule 1) has been implemented
- rule 1a) is supported by the game from the start
- to avoid abuse, doubling has stricter rules now: you are allowed to double only if your pips>20 AND your opponent's pips exceed yours by at least 5%

We are evaluating applying (back)gammon scoring when the game is given up or otherwise terminated (d/c or intentional closing of game window). We are thinking of a maximum pips value and a minimum pips difference or ratio. Can you advice on actual values?

ShaunTheSheep

Posts: 11
Registered: Nov, 2010

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 23, 2012 9:05 AM
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NEW RULE

"to avoid abuse, doubling has stricter rules now: you are allowed to double only if your pips>20 AND your opponent's pips exceed yours by at least 5%"

Just can't see what kind of abuse you are speaking of. If you want to risk doubling at the very beginning, this is up to you. I personally enjoy very much winning games when my opponent decided to risk doubling at the very beginning. Sort of spicy approach, isn't it?

As a general consideration you should give more information "BEFORE" you insert new rules.
Thanks for your attention.


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Posts: 17
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 24, 2012 2:15 AM
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Thank you for fixing these rule problems.

BUT....

Please, please, please fix the doubling cube. The game makes no sense if you can only double when the opponent is behind by 5% pip count. You often need to double when you are behind in pip count but in a better position. This is a totally incorrect response to the abuse problem - whatever that is.

Also, regarding the leaving a game early or resigning, they should be warned that it will count as a gammon or backgammon. The game makes no sense if this rule is not enforced. No one ever gets gammoned or backgammoned on this site because we all know we just have to leave the game. The only logical answer is to count it as a gammon or backgammon for leaving a game early.

Thanks for listening!!!

Caneta

Posts: 38
Registered: Jan, 2009

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:14 PM
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I totally agree with this comment. They tried to solve a problem of abuse of doubles, where players combine previously in play worth 32 points, causing an even bigger problem that is only available when the doubling cube the player has a great advantage. Now if the player has a great advantage not accept the opponent to fold and this spoils the game completely.
The rule change made in the use of the cube folds compactly to the use of a drug that was meant to cure a problem and kills the patient.
I am of the opinion that should return to the previous rule.

OPERATOR

Posts: 1,656
Registered: May, 2002

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:19 PM
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We would be interested to hear your suggestions about how to limit doubling, in order to put an end to the "32x from start" abuse of this feature, while also keeping it possible to use it on higher pip count when needed.

OP

plišani

Posts: 23
Registered: Apr, 2008

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 26, 2012 12:19 PM
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Whatever you'll do, there will be someone who will try to abuse that.
However, my opinions:

- 5% more or less pips means nothing if you have much better position on board. Actually, if you have 6 fields in a row blocked and 15:5 stones at board, doubling is what you should do even with 3x bigger pips.

- as long as tournaments have limited time and last game doesn't count if it isn't finished before tournament time ends, 5% pips rule is huge mistake because doubling in start can make difference will you win tournament or not (there is no prize for 2nd, so you have to risk).

- leaving game makes less harm then stalling (especially in tournaments). It should be punished as backgammon, but only if there was neither one stone out (so all 15 on board). Otherwise, I'm grateful to those who will in 15:5 position just quit that match.

So, suggestions:

1. remove 5% rule. Doubling is possible to abuse only if you play with more nicks, otherwise 32x from a start is just a risk for everyone who wants it. Put more aggression in banning multiple accounts. And one more thing - you should make some system notice about banning (same way as tournament announcement) because that will work as prevention. All those kids there in rooms mostly never heard that anyone was ever banned, so they are cheating because they have no fear.

2. 60 seconds for move is too long. Make it 30 seconds at most, in all the games, not just in tournament. Also, shorten match time accordingly, 8 minutes is more then enough even for beginners.

3. Leaving game with 15 stones on board should be counted as backgammon.

4. In tournaments, last game should be taken in scoring after finish.

5. In tournaments, there should be more moderators online, at least one in tournament room all the time, to prevent unfair deals between the players. If you are in the tournament room, you should accept every challenge of equal point players - and not just those whom you want to help to win.













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Posts: 17
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 27, 2012 3:11 AM
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I still don't understand the abuse problem. If people want to play a game for 32x, that's their decision. That's the way gambling works - if both people want to raise the stakes, the stakes get higher.

Personally, I enjoy it when people immediately double on me to 2x, because I retain control of the cube and an advantage from that point forward.

Please, whatever you do, just get rid of the 5% rule so the game is not ruined!!!

Can you please put the game back to normal while you try to figure this out?

Thanks.

plišani

Posts: 23
Registered: Apr, 2008

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 27, 2012 2:21 PM
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Personally, I enjoy it when people immediately double on me to 2x, because I retain control of the cube and an advantage from that point forward.


Agree with this.

Caneta

Posts: 38
Registered: Jan, 2009

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 30, 2012 8:23 PM
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I also agree with Mr regarding playing time. In the last tournament I just entered the room with 15 minutes to complete. Just played a full match. The second, I was challenged by a player named "WelshMan1969" I had never seen before. We started the game missing more than 8 minutes to finish the tournament. In the end, when it only remains to remove the tiles from the board I was clearly in front, with victory assured. The aponente started playing slowly so that the time had passed. I complained saying it was not just what he was doing and he did everything but laugh in my face. Conclusion, he only made the last movement when it was indicated that the tournament was over and that game was not worth the result. I was upset, but I had no chance in the tournament. Imagine if it were the deciding game to win or lose the tournament?
Thus, I propose two changes in regrasdo tournament: 1st cut down on movements of 60 to 20 seconds. 2nd, that when the time to end the tournament games in progress are valid.

plišani

Posts: 23
Registered: Apr, 2008

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Jan 30, 2012 9:00 PM
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I had such staller and yes, I'd win the tournament with that game which he blocked intentionaly.

There are several kids which are playing in group - you can find one or more of them in tournament room refusing all the challenges up to the tournament end, then they jump to play vs all the players who are close by points to their friend(s)... then they are simply stalling until tournament is over.
I played last 3 tournaments and every time same nicks were refusing to play no matter the score - waiting for right opponent to prevent him to get points.
Honestly, I don't see how this tournaments can be improved to prevent such cheating. The rules have to be completely different because this way, any bunch of kids can destroy real competition (and they are doing it).

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Posts: 17
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Feb 3, 2012 2:02 AM
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Can you please give an ETA on fixing the doubling cube? The game is horrible when you can't double when you have an advantage. It's amazing how often I am in a winning position when I am actually down in pip count. I didn't realize how often this happens until you added this ridiculous 5% pip rule.

Please let me know when it will be fixed.

DEVELOPER

Posts: 513
Registered: Sep, 2004

Re: Backgammon - rules and flaws Posted: Feb 3, 2012 3:02 PM
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Doubling limitation has been removed.

We are evaluating other options considering doubling and rating calculations.
Also, please check the other thread about backgammon tournaments.

[Edited by: DEVELOPER on Feb 3, 2012 3:18 PM]

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