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There is something WRONG here
Posted in 
Backgammon
There is something WRONG here
Posted in 
Backgammon
There is something WRONG here
I have joined this forum to enjoy playing backgammon but shortly discovered that the dice throw is not random. Having played over two months now one do not need to be ingenious to discover that the software is written to make the game interesting by detecting the opponents single checkers. But this is happening much too frequently.

I wanted to make sure that was the case. In my recent games I deliberately played to lose the game by exposing my checkers to my opponent to see if the dice throw will hit the single checkers. I would say most of the time 85% the dice throw was right on the single checker. This never happenes in real life games, never. This is not acceptable.

We all know how to play the game and it is a game of chance but we do not wish the game to contribute by detecting the single checkers. Just a random throw still makes this game exiting.

Please, make the dice throw random and stop the game detecting the single checkers at least not as high rate as it is now. Thanks

Having said all above I have not seen a ‘random dice throw’ certificate on this site.

I have chosen a random game to analyze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XOzWY9_OQ


1st blot at 0:14 - 5/36 probability to make a hit - result: negative (can not hit)

2nd at 1:13 - 2/36  - negative
3rd at 1:20 - 36/36 - positive
4th at 1:33 - 36/36 - positive
5th at 1:45 - 36/36 - positive
6th at 2:19 - 2/36 - negative
7th at 2:27 - 2/36 - negative
8th at 2:57 - 2/36 - negative
9th at 3:06 - 33/36 - positive
10th at 3:25 - 2/36 - negative
11th at 3:54 - 33/36 - positive
12th at 4:03 - 2/36 - negative
13th at 4:16 - 4/36 - negative
14th at 4:38 - 2/36 - negative
15th at 4:49 - 1/36 - negative
16th at 5:15 - 27/36 - positive
17th at 5:26 - 11/36 - negative
18th at 5:34 - 27/36 - positive
19th at 5:52 - 20/36 - positive
20th at 6:23 - 20/36 - positive
21st at 6:40 - 20/36 - negative
22nd at 6:58 - 11/36 - negative

Out of 22 cases, it was possible 9 times to make a hit. These occurred when the probability was high enough anyway (over 19/36).

These results seem quite normal for me: when probability was low, it was not possible to hit, when probability was high, it was possible to hit. When probability was neither low, nor high, anything could happen (see the ones at 20/36).

I hope this little explanation was useful.

Thank you for your attention

OP
Thank you for your reply but I would expect not the operator to comment but the fellow palyers to come forward and put forward their impartial views and experiences relating to this subject. I know that there are quite a few memebers who shared the same opinion as me.

100's of backgammon games are played each day and one above sample game can not be a representative of all.

As for the game play how can the we be sure that the dice throw is random? Who regulates this?
Opinion of your fellow players:

http://forum.flyordie.com/thread.jsp?forum=48&thread=58657


You can not be sure that dice are random, but being non-random would be completely contrary to logic.

Just think about this: what would be the point in "manipulating" the dice in any way if I may ask?

I also hope that you can come up with some evidence about your statements ("85% the dice throw was right on the single checker.").

Thank you.

OP
Is there any way of loading images here that will make explanation easier.

More I play your game more flaws become apparent.


I am very sorry but I need to write and share my experiences with the fellow backgammon players. Mr Operator you may not like my criticism and ban me from this web site but it will do no justice to my fellow players if I keep quiet.
Have you ever played Hoyle Backgammon or similar against your pc? And noticed that the software detects the single checkers and somehow cheats and the dice throw comes as exactly as needed to give you a hard time. With these games you can adjust the difficulty level. In fact you adjust how much the game will cheat. Otherwise the feeble pc will have no chance of winning against the human.

I can tell you that the games are written in such a way that to make the games more interesting and make it worthwhile playing. I am sure that most software games including this web site is written with this thinking. Most probably the game engines are copied from each other

I have played about 1500 backgammon games since joining and observed the programme behaviour.
I would say the following without bias.
a)	One can argue about whether the dice throw is random or not. I think the software needs to be improved on this matter. But more important than this is 

b)	The game detects the single checkers at a very high rate. This matter is so obvious that it is not even worth trying to convince anyone. Sometimes the dice throw is so surgical and hits the single checker I wonder if there is a third person behind the screen fiddling with the dice. The youtube link provided by the Operator can’t be the representative game. The yuotube game is a very modest game comparing many games the fellow players are experiencing. If the dice throw was random this rate would be much lower as in real life.

c)	You may say that human imagination is limitless. But having played so many games here the imagination has become reality. Say, I have gathered my checkers in doubles  in my area 6,5,4,3,2 and trapped my opponent on space 1 in my area. I am collecting my checkers now. My dice throw 6-5 and it leaves a single checker on space 6 since I can’t move 5. Opponents turn and guess what his dice throw comes with a much needed 5 and he is on my single checker on space 6 and the game’s fate is changed. His area is almost full and I have difficulty in getting back into the game. Somehow my dice throw do not see the empty spaces in my opponents area for more than necessary annoying turns. By the time I am back in the game my opponent has half way winning the game. This scenario has been repeating itself more times than I can remember. Once and twice I would not write here but it has become a pattern. I ask to myself is the game written in a way to give a chance to the underdog and make the game exciting. It seems that way. This is occurring too many times to be my imagination.

d)	This is best illustrated with a photo. Sometimes all of my checkers are frozen except one and I am forced to play that one. By playing that checker I put myself in a very disadvantaged position and before I know it the game is lost. However if I my checkers were not frozen and I was able to play another one I would have avoided the defeat and the balance of the game would have not altered. I have a screen capture image to show but I am not sure how to upload here.

e)	The game is almost finishing. I am in the lead and each player has got 3 or 4 checkers left to collect to finish. My opponent’s last throw (you guessed it correctly) is a double and he comes from the behind and wins the game. This is reoccurring more times than I can remember. Please don’t tell me that this is normal. It would be normal if it was 1 out of 10 games but not as it is.

f)	Sometimes I can’t believe my luck. I start collecting my checkers while my opponent is still trying to get back into the game. The dice throw is so unbelievably in my favour hurray. Having lost 7 previous consecutive games by way of fighting against the software’s caprices this quick game comes as a long awaited consolation. 

g)	One last thing. How is it possible for one player ‘MR INDEPENDENT’ to have a rating of over 1000 (yes over one thousand) while majority of players can only push their limits to several hundred only. Majority of players got a win/loss ratio of 50%. I feel that the software somehow equalise winnings.


You have many Turkish players here and most I play and communicate share the same experiences as above mentioned. Their lack of English language knowledge prevent them writing on the forum. This doesn’t mean that those who keep quiet are content with the game and lenient. 
Please let’s make the game more enjoyable by taking notice of our comments and experiences.
We all know that backgammon is a game of chance and very little skill. We become annoyed and frustrated if our changes are tampered by the way the software is written.


Please check


http://www.paulspages.co.uk/bgvaults/tips/dicerolls.php


>The youtube link provided by the Operator can’t be the representative game.

I have asked you to upload another game, to confirm your fabrications. You have not yet shown anything.

Just two main sentences from the link I suggested above:

"Your chances of getting back from the bar are better than they look."

"Some of these probabilities may seem unlikely, but the dice table below shows why they're true."

>b)	The game detects the single checkers at a very high rate. This matter is so obvious that it is not even worth trying to convince anyone. Sometimes the dice throw is so surgical and hits the single checker I wonder if there is a third person behind the screen fiddling with the dice. The youtube link provided by the Operator can’t be the representative game. The yuotube game is a very modest game comparing many games the fellow players are experiencing. If the dice throw was random this rate would be much lower as in real life.

I can still suggest to have a look at the mentioned page: if there is a single checker for which you need a 6, it is about 50% that you can hit.

>c) Opponents turn and guess what his dice throw comes with a much needed 5 and he is on my single checker on space 6 and the game’s fate is changed.

You might think otherwise but there is 30% chance of getting a 5 from two dices.

>Once and twice I would not write here but it has become a pattern.

30% is not "once and twice" but you can consider it a "pattern".

>d)	This is best illustrated with a photo. Sometimes all of my checkers are frozen except one and I am forced to play that one. By playing that checker I put myself in a very disadvantaged position and before I know it the game is lost.

I still wonder what has it got to do with random dice...

>e)	The game is almost finishing. I am in the lead and each player has got 3 or 4 checkers left to collect to finish. My opponent’s last throw (you guessed it correctly) is a double and he comes from the behind and wins the game. This is reoccurring more times than I can remember. Please don’t tell me that this is normal. It would be normal if it was 1 out of 10 games but not as it is.

To get a double has a probability of 1/6, not 1/10.
SO it is quite normal to get it more frequently than 1 out of 10.

>f)	Sometimes I can’t believe my luck.

"Sometimes" 
that's the whole point...

So it seems to me that you obviously do not care what I am saying, or what probability theory say. You have your own (mis)conception without any proof or evidence.

Bearing this in mind, all I can suggest to read the page I mentioned, get a screen capture program, save your games, and analyze them (not just one) as I did with mine.

This is the only way to convince YOURSELF, as there is no other person that can do it, it seems.

Thank you.